Interviews with Mark Knopfler

BF = Bill Flanagan, interviewer and writer of the book "Written In My Soul"
MK = Mark Knopfler, lead guitarist and lead singer in Dire Straits

BF: Let's run through some history: Your first album, Dire Straits, released six months later in
America than in the rest of the world, was a smash, sold millions of copies. The second album,
Communiqué, was already in the can when the first one came out. In America it was often written off
as a rehash. During this time the band toured constantly. Then, in early 1980, you pulled the band off
the road and made it clear you were calling the shots. You wrote the making Movies album, went to
New York that summer to record it, and came back with a stronger sound and a positive attitude. Is
any of that wrong?

MK: Not really. Just for the record, Communiqué did sell three million copies. In a lot of countries it did
better than the first. Tha hang-up about Communiqué was an American thing. But having said that, I still don't
think it was a very good record. Making Movies was closer to what I like to do. On that record I was
determined I would not be immobilized by anything. I was going on, to do what I knew I could do. I just kept
on working. I decided against being waylaid, to be a survivor instead of casualty. That break gave me the
time to consider all that had happened and to express
it in terms of music. Retrospect's a really good thing. Time to think and write it down. Some of those songs
were written during a period of turbulence. I wasn't felling good or collected when I wrote "Solid Rock"; I
deliberately wrote and recorded that and "Expresso Love" fast. I took more time to record "Romeo and
Juliet" because it took more time to write and demanded special attention.

To crystallize: If you can turn negative energy into positive, turn a dire straits situation, excuse the term, into
one that is positive, you're not going to go under, you're creating. Like someone who could write a book in
prison. The songs are linked in that sense. It wasn't conscious, but I see the Sultans, Les Bouys, the roller
skate girl, and Romeo all change disadvantage into advantage. Rather than leave it thay make something with
it. I'm not advocating adverse circumstanses, but if they come you have to create from it.

What have you been unable to write about?

Well, I've never felt moved to write about particularly obscene people - I've gotten close, writing about
people who are very, very different from me like "Les Boys" [Making Movies]. You take the part of
somebody else, you're just not that person. On "The Man's Too Strong" [Brothers in Arms], I tried to do a
study in guilt and hatred and fear. On some levels, you can almost see a Hess-like figure, in the depths of
Spandau. You might see somebody who's just not at peace with himself. It's always interesting to me that any
kind of heavy censorship, like book burnings, has always failed in the long run. That kind of suppression. I
was just trying to get in the mind of somebody who's lived his life that way. There's nothing very heavy about
it, it's just an experiment in character and playwriting. That song is absolutely not me. It's like Randy Newman
talking about being a closet gay truck driver.

I think if I was to sing "Private Dancer," "All the men come in these places," the audience would know it was
a character, they'd be able to make that adjustment. It's really a song that a woman should sing, but to my
mind, a man should be able to just as easily, and if it's done well, you should be able to make that adjustment.
If it's done properly, then part of the fun is to make that jump - it's good for the imagination. I suppose there's
nearly always some connection. I mean, look at "Les Boys." We're not gay, but they did cabaret and we do
loads of shows. We had done our turn when we saw them and I thought, "God, what's the difference?"

The lead character in "Money for Nothing" is a guy who works in the hardware department in a
telvision/custom kitchen/refrigerator/microwave appliance store. He's singing the song. I wrote the song when
I was actually in the store. I borrowed a bit of paper and started to write the song down in the store. I
wanted to use a lot of the language that the real guy actually used when I heard him, because it was more
real. It just went better with the song, it was more muscular. I actually used "little faggot," but there are a
couple of good "motherfuckers"in there. I wanted to do a second version that way but I never had time. I'd
still love to be able to do it. Even if just the band had it, because it would be the real version. I mean that is
the way people speak. I think people still get the general idea. You can use other words that will suggest the
general feel.

It also has to do with the context in wich a song's received. If we walk into a hardware store and hear
someone say, "Look at that motherfucker" it means nothing to us, but if you hear it in a pop song . . .

If you hear it in New York it means nothing. If you're living in Tallahassee then maybe it's a different thing.
There is no way that I would except people to receive all that in the spirit in wich it was intended. They'd
probably think I was just being vulgar.

On the first two Dire Straits albums the narrator never spoke to anyone. He was always standing in
the background watching the woman on the train, the Chinese merchants, the Sultans of Swing. The
third album, Making Movies, still had songs like that, but also had tracks such as "Expresso Love," in
wich the singer made direct contact. Do you think of yourself as an outsider? Or do you find it easier
to write from that perspective?

"Brothers in Arms" is sung by a soldier who is dying on the battlefield. You can't just write off the top of your
head; you have to dig deep to get those things. You have to experience, if a thing is really going to be
realistic, if you're gonna try and get whatever you feel across. So, in a sense you're an outsider, but you're
also digging inside to do it properly. I don't think you can get away scot-free with these things; otherwise, it's
just not going to work. If you stay outside of these experiences, they're just not going to translate to people.
That whole area of creation plays all kinds of tricks on the writer. It can fool him into thinking that itäs easier
than it really is; it can fool him into thinking that it's harder than it really is; it can fool him into thinking it's
working when it's not; it can fool him into thinking it's not working when it is.

You might write something down and not really know. It might seem that there's logic to it, there's a flow to it,
there's some kind of reason to it, there was some kind of cause that's coming out in terms of this effect. But
the reasons might make themselves more clear to you afterwards. You could be having a fairly clear vision,
but there could be some mechanism, wich for a good reason gets in the way of that. Perhaps you're getting
more involved in the finer technical points of rhyme. So, it's a weird business, all that.

The thing has to have a whole, harmonic balance. You try to create something that's going to work on a
number levels: it's useful, it's functional, it's beautiful, it makes a point, it has its own reality. And it's based
always on music you like to play. I'm not saying that everything is a crisis, I'm just saying that everwhere there
are choices - at every level of the game. Doing a movie score or making a record there's so many choices, so
many possibilities. You talk about being an outsider. Well, you try standing outside while being inside, too.
It's important to be able to be outside, dispassionate. You do have to stand back and look at what you're
painting. You can't just enter into the depths of this thing and have bits of paint flying all over the place. You
have to look at what you're making.

The precision that you bring to your work at every level, and how careful you are of choices, stands in direct
contrast to some of the people you've worked with - Bob Dylan and Van Morrison - who do in fact seem to
jump in there with the paint flying.

Well, s lot of oaint flies around me as well. It's just that perhaps the thing gets sculpted a bit more.

You're so much the ringleader of your own circus, is it tough for you to join somebody else's? When
you're recording with Bob Dylan, is it tough for you to have to defer to him, when you have your own
vision of how this record can be perfect?

I don't believe in perfect, I just don't believe that. There's so many ways to do any song, perfection's just a
cloud in the air. People say I'm a perfectionist and all of that. It's just not so.

I think it's fair to say that you have great self-confidence.

Well, I have the self-confidence to go gaily steaming off in completely the wrong direction. (Laughs.) Yes,
that's the kind of man I am. As far as music goes, it's very easy for things to get way out of hand with me, just
because I've got the confidence. "This is the way it is!" I'm very glad that I'm continually outting myself in
situations where it's being made absolutely obvious that the directions wich I feel like charging off in aren't the
right directions at all.

Did you feel when you were a kid like you'd live in America someday?

Yeah. I think just because of music. It wasn't because of Hollywood. It was because of rock & roll music,
more than anything. I've always felt an affinity with America, Americans. It's because America's made up of
Everyman - in some ways I feel as though I'm made up of a little bit of Everyman, too. I feel I have things in
common with almost anywhere I am. The only time I've felt really, really at odds with all the people around
me was when I've been anywhere near a mob. Where there's brute ignorance in a mass of people, like a
lynch mob mentality, I always feel very separate. Pictures I've seen in magazines of people getting killed by
soldiers or anything like that. I played all the war games as a kid and nobody played them with more intense
seriousness than I did, with more enjoyment. I was really into it. I loved to play them. Having grown up,
there's something about a mob of people that worries me, that makes me really feel like an outsider. I get as
angry as anybody else does when an old lady's beaten up or murdered, I get very mad and start saying,
"We've gone soft in the head, we're letting these guys out of jail," and I probably sound a bit reactionary. But
I remember once going to a football match when the guys like to fight one another, and I remember feeling so
utterly separate from this energy. Maybe they were the kind of kids who were made to feel like they were
rejects and this was their time to get rid of that energy, to sream blue murder and maybe get into a fight. That
always worried me. I'm used to it because I grew up in Glasgow and Newcastle and got into plenty of fights.
I learned how to fight there. But I still fear it terribly. I'm still distressed that there are so many people who
see quite content to follow that as a way of life. They're not adverse to standing on a corner with a broken
bottle in their hand, waving it in somebody's face. It seems that it's acceptable to them that violence is part of
our lives. It's acceptable that Bernhard Goetz can talk about the need for people to walk around with guns.
Or that it's perfectly alright to send armies into places to bang, bang, shoot 'em up. Stick a bayonet in his ass.
What the hell is that? My grandfathers were probably fightin in the British Army and the German Army. They
probably tried to kill each other and if they had, that would have been that. There would be no strumming.

DO YOU THINK THERE'S an identifiable British sound to Dire Straits?

I don't really think of Dire Straits as a sound, you know. It. just depends on the song, and the stuff we're
doing is so varied. I don't think of sounds as being American or English or Japanese or German. That doesn't
mean anything; it's all just music. It's either good music or bad music, and good music, to me, is the stuff that's
got a bit of soul. The other stuff I'm not really interested in.

For Local Hero, did you reach back for some Celtic influences you heard when you were growing up?

Well, I was born in Scotland and spent the first six years of my life there. Then I went to Newcastle-On-Tyne
in northeast England, close to Scotland. So I heard a lot of that music, and of course it's still very strong. In
fact, what are the Everly Brothers but that Celtic thing? You can hear the Celtic influence in a lot of country
music as well as in people like Gerry Rafferty [of "Baker Street" fame] - that Celtic drone. I had to get even
closer still with Cal, which is set in Ireland. For that, I used a fair amount of uillean pipes played by Sean
O'Flynn, who's maybe the best exponent of that. Lately, I've become friendly with an Irish singer called Paul
Brady, who plays whistle on Cal.

Was rock and roll the first music you ever played?

Yes. I heard my uncle Kingsley playing boogie woogie on the piano when I was about eight or nine, and I
thought that those three chords were the most magnificent things in the world - still do. The first records I
made my mom buy were Lonnie Donegan skiffle records. That was before I was 10 years old. I had to wait
until I was 15 before I got a guitar, because my old man wanted me to appreciate it when I got it. It was a
red Hofner V-2, I think they called it. Cost 50 quid. It was Strat-shaped, and it had to be red.

American-made guitars were pretty scarce in England in the early ‘60s.

Yeah. A Strat was a thing of wonder. When I was 14or 15, the Shadows were a big influence, and they had
the first Strats that came to England. Cliff Richard brought them back for them. Hank Marvin played lead on
a Strat, and Bruce Welch played Tele rhythm.

Were you also influenced by American instrumental bands from the late ‘5Os and early ‘6Os?

Oh, yes. I went up the street to a little pal of mine and made him play me ,,Because They're Young" [by
Duane Eddy] 49 times. I could spend the whole day listening to that: the twang. Do you remember the
Fireballs? I have one Fireballs single with ,,Quite A Party" on one side and ,,Gunshot" on the other. I played
that 4,900 times. Completely and utterly in love with it. Then you'd grow up into Radio Luxembourg, and
you'd sit up talking to your older sister. She talks about her boyfriends, and you listen to Ben E. King's
,,Spanish Harlem" or ,,Hey, Baby" by Bruce Channel - stuff like that.

Were you also into rockabilly?

Early Elvis, of course, and one of the biggest of all was the Everly Brothers - with Chet Atkins on guitar; but
of course, I didn't know that, and they didn't put their names on records then. But he's probably the greatest
of all. Then there was Ricky Nelson - a record called ,,Just A Little Too Much," which doesn't get a lot of
exposure-and I didn't know then that that was James Burton on guitar. The sound on those records-just listen
to the backing on ,,Hello, Mary Lou" - is astonishingly great. Jerry Lee Lewis was another complete genius.

A lot of English rock guitarists got their start playing ,,trad" razz, Dixieland. Were you involved in
that at all?

No, the only thing young kids were really exposed to were the occasional novelty pop singles like ,,Midnight
In Moscow" by [trumpeter] Kenny Ball or ,,Stranger On The Shore" by [clarinetist] Acker Bilk. Later on, I
got into it some. Everything went in stages. After I'd gotten the solidbody Hofner, I didn't have the nerve to
ask my dad for an amplifier - it cost so much - so I had to borrow a friend's acoustic guitar. All the time I
wanted to play rock and roll, I got forced into playing sort of folk joints. Of course, that was very good,
because I learned how to fingerpick. The first time I heard a 4/4 claw-hammer picking pattern, I fell totally in
love with that. So things were progressing on a number of fronts. Later, I got into National steel-body guitars
from a guy in Leeds called Steve Phillips, who also builds beautiful guitars. I got involved in all kinds of slide
playing and ragtime, country blues, jugband, and even western swing.

When you got into different styles, how studied was your approach?

Not studied at all. I was just trying to absorb the spirit of the thing, rather than take an academic approach.
I've never had a guitar lesson. I'm not proud of it particularly, but it's just the way I seem to do it. It's not the
best way. I don't recommend it to all your readers.

Considering the enormous impact the Beatles had on American groups, they must have been an even
bigger influence on a young musician like yourself growing up in England

Oh, huge! ,,Please, Please Me" was one of the first records that I bought. It's funny now, because while I've
been working with Aztec Camera at Ayre Studio [in London], I've been playing Asteroids about every other
day with Paul McCartney. It's slightly strange to think, ,,Oh, that's him"[laughs]. But I also liked the Rolling
Stones, and I absolutely loved the Kinks. I got into trouble for writing Le Kinks on notebooks and desks in
school. I loved songs like ,,Where Have All the Good Times Gone," ,,Waterloo Sunset, and ,,You Really
Got Me." I enjoyed that period, and then a few years later, when I was 18or 19, I got into a lot of the
American bands, like the Doors, and some of the English bands that didn't necessarily make it as big, such as
Head, Hands & Feet [with Albert Lee]. I never really got into deep record collecting, because I was always
moving around and was too impoverished.

When did you get into R&B guitar players?

When I was listening to Elvis and the Everlys, I suppose. Then shortly before Dire Straits, I was playing a
Gibson Les Paul Special in a rockabilly / R&B band in London. When I heard B.B. King, at age 16, that was
another big turning point, because I was really struck with the relationship between the guitar and the voice
and the whole bending thing, the way it sounded. Later, when I was 20 or 21, I remember hearing Lonnie
Johnson with Eddie Lang - the Blue Guitars album [EMI, PCM 7019]. Then I realized that there was a
connection, and I read an interview with B.B. King saying that Lonnie Johnson had been a big influence on
him. It's great to make these little connections and see how they do line up.

Bob Dylan is probably the most obvious influence on your singing and writing.

I was hugely influenced by him about the age of 14 or 15, going ‘round to girls' houses, drinking 75 cups of
coffee, smoking 90 cigarettes, and listening to Blonde On Blonde [Columbia, CS2-841] 120 times. I heard
Bob Dylan from the very beginning, the ,,Hard Rain" days, and went with him all the way up, and I'm still with
him. I still think he's great. Blood On The Tracks [Columbia, HC-43235] is one of my favorite records, with
,,Tangled Up In Blue." On the last record [Infidels], to hear the first lines of "I And I," that's enough to make
anybody who writes songs want to retire. It's stunning. Bob's musical ability is limited, in terms of being able
to play a guitar or a piano. It's rudimentary, but it doesn't affect his variety, his sense of melody, his singing.
It's all there. In fact, some of the things he plays on piano while he's singing are lovely, even though they're
rudimentary. That all demonstrates the fact that you don't have to be a great technician. It's the same old
story: If something is played with soul, that's what's important. My favorite records, by and large, aren't
wonderful technical achievements, with the exception perhaps of people like Chet Atkins. But generally
speaking, all you've got to do is listen to a Howlin' Wolf album - that's just soul.

Along with the impact Dylan had on you, were you also influenced much by the Band, in particular
Robbie Robertson's guitar playing?

No, I don't think so. Not really.

Were there any specific guitar influences that made your style take the form it did?

I don't know.

Some of your playing is reminiscent of J.J. Cale's.

Oh, of course, yeah. I listened to a lot of J.J. Cale around the time my style was developing. He's great. I'd
love to meet him. He's very, very special to me.

Another guitarist to whom you bear a remarkable similarity is Richard Thompson.

Well, I haven't really heard much of Richard Thompson's stuff. I saw him play live years ago with his
then-wife [Linda Thompson] and enjoyed it very much. But I've only listened to one of his records.Around
the time Dire Straits was starting, we were all in this house, and John [Illsley] hadone of his records. I haven't
really kept up with him, but I mean to do something about that. We've both done folk music and things, so
there's probably quite a lot of common ground. I think I was probably more into the blues, while he was
doing Fairport Convention.

But like Thompson, you don’t at all resemble the stereotypical blues-based lead guitarist rattling off
pentatonic licks.

You mean down-da-da-da, down-da-da-da, down-da-da-da? Have you heard that Pretenders single
[,,Middle Of The Road," Learning To Crawl, Sire, 1-23980]? Right, I don't do that [laughs].

On Slow Train Coming, on the other hand, you didn‘t play the sorts of things you‘re known for with
Dire Straits. It’s very bluesy, a la Albert King.

I was asked to do that. [Producer] Jerry Wexler said, ,,Try for a gut-bucket style of thing." So I borrowed a
Gibson ES-335 that somebody down there had, and off we went.

On Infidels, whose idea was it to have Mick Taylor on guitar?

Bob decided on the whole band, although I did suggest that Alan [Clarke] be there, because we'd been in the
room doing Local Hero and had sort of a working thing going on there. And I suggested the engineer, Neill
Dorfsman, who did Love Over Gold and Local Hero. We were like a three-man team at that point. Sly
Dunbar and Robbie Shakespeare [reggae's top studio drummer and bassist, respectively] were Bob's ideas,
as well as Mick Taylor. I suggested Billy Gibbons, but I don't think Bob had heard of ZZ Top. It would have
been great to have done that with Billy. My roughs are different from the final record. Bob mixed it, because I
had to go on tour in Germany with Dire Straits. I think he changed some things. I've only heard the album
once.

Was it difficult producing Dylan?

Yeah. You see people working in different ways, and it's good for you. You have to learn to adapt to the
way different people work. Yes, it was strange at times with Bob. One of the great parts about production is
that it demonstrates to you that you have to be flexible. Each song has its own secret that's different from
another song, and each has its own life. Sometimes it has to be teased out, whereas other times it might come
fast. There are no laws about songwriting or producing. It depends on what you're doing, not just who you're
doing. You have to be sensitive and flexible, and it's fun. I'd say I was more disciplined. But I think Bob is
much more disciplined as a writer of lyrics, as a poet. He's an absolute genius. As a singer - absolute genius.
But musically, I think it’s a lot more basic. The music just tends to be a vehicle for that poetry.

When you're playing on someone else's record, what sort of directions do you usually get from the
artist or the producer?

In 99% of the cases, almost none. It’s always very nice.

What do you want to know about the song you’re playing on?

I want to know what the lyric is, what the song is about. I like to talk to the lyric to a certain extent. That's
important to me. What was funny and kind of nice about doing Bryan Ferry's stuff is that Bryan works
backwards from the way I work. He creates these very nice sounding, very simple grooves, and they seem to
instigate the lyric. The lyrics come last which is great, just fine. But, you know, I would say to Bryan, ,,What
do you think this is going to be about? A dragonfly. Oh." And that can create tension or whatever, too.

Do you usually get called to do a session because someone is after your specific sound?

It varies. It's usually all-around guitar playing. A lot of the things that I do on session don't relate to the Dire
Straits sound, if there is such a thing. I might be just playing my Gibson Chet Atkins solidbody classical or a
National, maybe just doing a part or something.

You don’t feel as though you’ve been stereotyped for your identifiable sound and lead approach?

To me, that's never seemed to be limiting in terms of sessions. I like to play a lot of different styles of things
on sessions. On Tina Turner's new album, she recorded a song I wrote called ,,Private Dancer," and she got
the whole Dire Straits band to play on it, but I was busy doing the Bryan Ferry sessions. So she got Jeff
Beck to play the second ugliest guitar solo you've ever heard on it.

What are the advantages and disadvantages to doing sessions or working on film scores as opposed
to playing in a band?

Oh, it's all just advantages. It all makes you bigger. It's a challenge. I look at something like Cal where I did
all the music cues, and I didn't think I could do it at first. But I just started at the beginning and staggered
through it from one piece to the next until it was finished. It's a finely-tuned film, and the slightest thing you
add or subtract really affects what's going on. It's very exacting. There are a lot of decisions to be made. It's
part of a picture, but at the same time you want the music to stand up on its own. I don't like soundtrack
albums that have one song and the rest is all filler.

On a film score, do you work along with the director?

Yes. For instance, with Cal, I made sure that Pat O'Connor, the director, was in the studio almost every day.
I'd just drag him in there. That's another reason I like film work: You're trying to do something for somebody
else, and you're cooperating. It's less selfish in a way than this egomaniac thing of Singer/ Songwriter Does
Own Record. It's nice to be a part of a bigger thing.

Do you think you’d ever put out a solo album not connected with a film or with Dire Straits?

I feel that with the band there's enough for all that expression. But I would like to make some little records for
different kinds of things - maybe built around the guitar or whatever. And I love to do sessions. I get enough
to do without feeling frustrated about not doing solo records. The film stuff gives me an Opportunity to do all
that. To have musicians like [saxophonist] Mike Brecker and [vibist] Mike Mainieri or [bassist] Tony Levin
play on your music is wonderful. Words can't express it.

Apart from sessions and Dire Straits, do you get a chance to sit in with other musicians on a regular
basis?

A little bit, but not as much as I'd like to. But that's just because of the demands of the cycle of events of the
group, the production stuff, and the films. I love to play with other people. I think musicians should and,
generally speaking, do intermingle a lot. I'm totally in favor of that. I've got a little project in the back of me
mind that Mike Mainieri has been asking me about. We sort of talked about putting some people together
and making music. It's all just a question of time. I'd love to have 60-hour days.

Has your composing for Dire Straits been influenced much by movie soundtracks? A lot of your songs
have a feel somewhat like The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly.

Yes, that's Ennio Morricone. He's done The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly, Fistful Of Dollars things like
1900. Yes, he's a big influence.

Do you have any particularly strong literary influences in your songwriting?

Lots and lots. That was my subject at university, and I taught English for a while. There's too many to name:
Shakespeare, a lot of American writers, such as Raymond Chandler, metaphysical poets.

Do you find that certain keys or chord progressions give pieces a more majestic quality?

Yeah, I like certain keys more and more. I've been doing a lot of stuff in F and D minor. ,,Down To The
Waterline" [Dire Straits] is B minor, which is a nice key as well.

Is that the Ennio Morricone influence coming through?

Probably, yes. That slightly comic, melodramatic thing. I call it ,,spaghetti music. ,, Things like ,,Private
Investigations" [Love Over Gold] are almost tongue-in-cheek deliberately exaggerated.

Your guitar playing seems fairly delicate, yet there are a lot of dynamics, a lot of driving rhythms in
your music.

Thank you. I like arranging other people's instruments, and working with the way verses go into choruses. I
like dynamics and things to be a little bit dramatic. I work with every aspect of the whole thing: the bass, the
piano, when a bass drum is hit, every highhat beat. Certain pieces just go, but with other pieces I like to get
into everything that goes on.

On a studio album, how much overdubbing do you do?

We end up keeping quite a lot of the live takes, actually. Love Over Gold was a heavily worked on record.
Too much attention was paid to that, I think, in a lot of respects. But it was interesting to have done it that
way. I don't think I'd like to do another record that was so heavily produced, though.

Do you eve play rhythm guitar yourself?

Oh, I love to. I like to have two rhythm guitars on most pieces anyway.

Do you also instruct or direct the other rhythm guitarist’s part?

Pretty much, usually. The bass and drums as well.

So you write the arrangement as well as the song itself?

Pretty much, but people always bring their own little bits and pieces to it. Sometimes they bring the entire
thing, and that's even greater. Every musician will come up with things that only he could come up with, and I
like to use those things. Hal [Lindes] often comes up with different voicings than I would have had in mind.

Does that change the mood of the song?

It can, yes.

You have a very vocal-like guitar style, but it’s not at all like the B. B. King style you mentioned
earlier.

Part of the difference, I suppose, would be chucking away the pick when I was evolving my own style. Style,
I find, is always impossible to define, but it's easy to recognize.

What made you start playing lead with your bare fingers?

It just started to happen. I remember sitting in a house in London - starving to death at the time - playing a
cheap Japanese acoustic with really light electric guitar strings on it. I knew then that it was on a turn, it was
developing. I was doing things with my fingers that I couldn't do with a pick-really fast things and what have
you. I still love to play with a pick, and sometimes you have to record certain parts or songs with a pick - for
instance, ,,Expresso Love" [Making Movies]. But it's interesting that now I'm not nearly as comfortable with
a pick as I am with my fingers.

Did you go through different stages of developing techniques and experimenting with fingerpicks?

Yes. I went through thumbpicks and even steel fingerpicks with the Nationals, and I dispensed with them. It's
a bit of a disadvantage without them sometimes, because a thumbpick is just great for that chunk thing that
Chet Atkins can do so brilliantly.

What does your picking technique consist of now?

It's the thumb and first two fingers, and I tend to anchor with the back or my hand and my other two fingers,
so it's a solid base.

Do you pick with your fingernails or with the meat of your fingertips?

It's really from skin, but sometimes the nail will catch. You can use the nail to snap it. A lot of times, I’ll hit a
note with the thumb and second finger together, so it might seem as though I'm pinching the string, squeezing
it. The second finger hits it first I think, behind the thumb, so you can get a real physicality with a note.

Is your tone a product of the type of guitar you play, or is it a result of your picking technique?

I think it's a combination. I like to play all kinds of guitars, not just Strats, but I wasn't getting the sound I
really wanted until I got a Stratocaster. It was about a 61 with a rosewood neck. I like rosewood necks a lot,
even though I end up playing a lot of maple necks. I very rarely use a Fender Strat these days; it's usually a
Schecter instead, which is a more powerful guitar.

Your old Fender Strat used to have the 3-way toggle switch taped so that it would stop in the position
between the middle and rear pickups. why didn't you just get a 5-position switch to achieve the same
pickup combination?

I liked the 3-way switch better than the 5-position; it had a better sound. But I kept knocking it out. I have a
5-position switch on the Strat now. The roadies are always pulling bits out and sticking things in.

Why did you switch from your Fender to a Strat-style Schecter?

I didn't want to keep flogging a Strat around the world, getting it smashed

pieces. Same thing with my beautiful Telecaster that David [Knopfler] used to play rhythm on in the band. It's
a double-bound sunburst Custom Tele, about a ’67 or ‘68, and I'm not inclined to have it smashed to bits.
The Schecter is beautifully made and very strong.

Does it weigh a lot more than the Fender?

Yeah, the Schecters do tend to weigh a lot more. Probably the best electric I ever had was a Schecter that I
used on Making Movies, but it was stolen. John Suhr, at Rudy's Music Stop in New York City, has worked
on all my guitars, and so does Jack Sonni from the same shop. I got John to come to the studio all the way
through the Dylan sessions [for Infidels], just to work on all the guitars. He screens different pickups and
installs them. John does the best work I've ever seen - brilliant fretjobs and what have you.

Are your guitars heavily modified?

Not really. One Schecter has Seymour Duncan Vintage pickups, and another red one has heavier Seymour
Strat pickups in it.

Have you amassed a very sizable instrument collection?

No, I haven't. For instance, I still haven't got a flat-top wooden acoustic, because I've never found one that
was as good as the two best flat tops I ever played. One was a David Russell Young guitar that Steve Khan
lent me, which was absolutely stunning. The other was a hand-built Greco that Rudy [Pensa, of Rudy's Music
Stop] lent me. I used the David Russell Young on Love Over Gold, and the Greco on Infidels. When I got
my Ovation Adamases, I started using them straight away on Slow Train Coming and Local Hero. For the
Aztec Camera thing, I borrowed a couple of old Martins from Eric Clapton, because they'd been using
Ovations, and you just can't get the personality out of them. They've also been using my new red Schecter
Tele [see cover], which is one of the best sounding electric guitars I've ever had.

So on Dire Straits albums you play borrowed acoustics?

I have some Ovations, but no wooden flat-tops. Hal has a Martin, and my Adamas guitars-a 6- and a
12-string have seen quite a bit of recording. One of my favorite guitars is the Gibson Chet Atkins solidbody
classical, which has been on a lot of sessions since I got it. It's a beautifully made thing. I use it onstage, too,
because you can get really loud with the thing. The action is low, so it tries to get the best of both worlds. By
and large, I think it succeeds. It's a lot of fun to play. I used it on the Bryan Ferry sessions [as yet
unreleased], some sessions with Phil Everly, and on the film scores I just did.

When you record with an Ovation, do you play it through an amp?

It sounds great direct. I might have an amp out in the studio with a microphone on it, too. On Local Hero,
we sent the Adamas direct quite a lot.

Do you ever work out solos ahead of time on a session?

No, not really. Sometimes it might break down in the middle, and then you figure out which way it should go,
and punch it in. Hut generally speaking, it's pretty rough-and-ready. I'll often play three passes, record them
all, and then make something by stitching them together.

You usually stay pretty close to the song's melody or play a countermelody, instead of working off
licks and patterns.

Well, it doesn't go down-da-da-da, down-da-da-da [laughs].

Judging by the live album, you’ve recently begun taking more extended solos.

I started writing other sections for songs like ,,In The West," instead of that sort of skeletal Communiqué
approach. With the keyboards coming into the band, I started writing new sections and was inspired to build
things up a bit, trying to get the full possibilities of the song out, instead of the more linear approach that
marked the earlier sound of Dire Straits.

Why did you decide to come out with live a LP at this point?

Several reasons. I wanted to have a record of the band at that certain stage. Second, we played to about
three-quarters of a million people on the last tour, and a lot of them found their way into our dressing room.
One of the major things the fans would ask for was a live record. Also, I wanted to see if we could do a
genuine live album without tampering with the multitrack in any way - which we managed to do.

On most supposedly live albums, they’ve overdubbed.

Everything. I got to play an awful lot of pool during that record, because the engineer was doing a lot of the
mixing, so I was just upstairs playing pool. It wasn't very taxing.

Why did Dire Straits put out a four-song EP after Love Over Gold, rather than a complete album?

Well, the EP was actually a reaction against the album. After doing something where you spend a lot of
care-and doing ,,Private Investigations" about 20,000 times - then all you want to do, basically, is play
,,Bebop-A-Lula."

Do you vary your amps and settings much in the studio?

We just take potluck and go. For stage, I have two amps set up for different things. They're Boogies with
Marshall cabinets. One's set lower, and I put the National through that, and you have to graphic [EQ] pretty
heavily for that onstage. It's a metal-body with palm trees and canoes on it [a l4 fret Style 0 from the 1930s].

What about effects? There's an interesting fast echo on ,,Waterline" [Dire Straits].

I have no idea what that was. Rhett Davies was the engineer on that record, and he's in love with Roland
Chorus Ensembles, so it might well have been that. I actually use a Roland onstage. Most of my effects are
echoes. I have a Delta Lab that I like very much, too.

Do you prefer a certain brand and gauge of strings?

They're called Dean Markley Custom Lights. I'd have to check the gauges [high to low, .009, 011, 015, 026,
036, 046]

Is there a pattern to your creative process when you write a song?

No, there's no formula, no law. I'm lazy [laughs]. One song might come quickly, and another might take
hundreds of hours over a long period of time with varying amounts of inebriation.

What's the most inebriated song you ever wrote?

,,Once Upon A Time In The West" [Communiqué] was one of them. I was watching the film on TV in a
slightly altered state.

Do you use a multitrack cassette recorder to keep track of ideas and come up with arrangements?

No, I should. I don't even use a tape recorder. I just write things down in a book. A lot of ideas come
around, and I've forgotten them in the morning. Sometimes I figure, ,,Well, if I wake up and can still
remember it, then it's worth remembering."

Do you just jam on guitar to come up with melodies and changes?

Yes, for hours and hours. And then for more hours. I can play by myself quite happily for days. Sometimes I
sit down at the piano and hit the keys, make shapes, but I’m not what you'd call a player. I'm not what I'd
call a proper musician on the guitar. I feel as though I'm a student who's not going to school. I've been
working from the Mickey Baker book [Jazz And Hot Guitar, Book I] to get some extra chords. I love to
learn a new chord and find out what it means, and use it in what I write. I'm developing slowly that way.

Have the outside projects made it difficult to keep to a schedule with Dire Straits?

Dire Straits' schedule is dictated partly by whether or not I've written any songs, and also by how many other
things I want to do. If I did all the things I get asked to do, then there would be no time for Dire Straits at all.
So to a certain extent, it does affect the band. The band would probably be working much more if I weren't
doing anything else. But then life would be extremely dull and tedious, wouldn't it?

Is there anything else you'd like to add?

Just this [picking up his red Schecter]: down-da-da-da, down-da-da-da, down-da-da-da...



On earlier records you played slide on your National. Did you use an open tuning on, say ,,Water Of
Love"?

Yeah. G tuning-D, G, D, G, B, D - capoed somewhere. I could always do a lot more with it than with the E
tuning.

On which finger do you wear your slide?

A hundred years ago, I started with the third - doing Elmore James, straight off, no problem. It just felt more
comfortable. When I realized I needed more fingers to do other things, the slide went on the little finger.

Have you always had an affinity for country blues?

Yeah. I didn't actually study it the way I studied literature at the university. I was never a Stefan Grossman
aficionado or anything, because I always rejected the academic approach to country blues. I’d listen, not
necessarily to imitate the music, but to get off on lt. If you stay too stuck in something old, you just end up
being a guy with leather elbow pads on his sport jacket who turns up with a National guitar and plays these
academically correct country blues tunes, imitations of Gary Davis or something. So what? Enjoy the music,
get the attitude and spirit out of it, and move on. It's not about making a religion of these people. Don't build
a shrine.

Do you remember a particular moment when you discovered what the world would later call the
,,Knopfler sound"?

Yeah, I suppose so. I was sleeping on the floor in somebody's apartment. They had a cheap imitation of a
Gibson Dove acoustic with unbelievably light strings. It was like playing an electric guitar, but there was a little
bit of sound to it. You couldn't really strum or bash it, so I had to fingerpick. As I was flying around this
guitar, I realized I was doing things with my fingers that I could do with a pick and also some other things that
I wouldn’t be able to do with a pick. Playing with your fingers has something to do with immediacy and soul.
You are absolutely in touch with what is going on. And that can lead to other things too. On the electric, I
developed the sound a bit further with a volume pedal.

Really? Most would assume you were manipulating your Strat’s volume knob to get that crying sound.

Just a simple Ernie Ball pedal. It gives you more of a speaking voice, something that approximates a steel
guitar. I always wanted that. I can’t sing, so the guitar becomes a voice in many ways. You are not looking at
Bonnie Raitt here.

Are you trying to minimize attack?

That’s more like a voice coming in, isn’t it? But sometimes I’ll make a meal of the attack: With my thumb and
fingers I’ll do a little flurry – pa-ta-dam. I’m just interested in attack as lack of attack.

How exactly do you create that flurry? Do you snag the strings with your index finger and then follow
through with your thumb?

Well, yes, it’s the same as the boogie rhythm. In other words, the fingers do a pickup before the downbeat.
The downbeat is with the thumb. This applies to rhythm playing – which is my greates joy – as well as solo
playing. You anticipate the downbeat with a pickup, a brush from either on or two fingers. A flamenco
guitarist will swirl the fingers an then – wham – hit the downbeat. It’s a cheapened, mediocre version of that.

How does one develop a signature voice?

It’s not going to happen by buying a videocassette tape that shows you how to play like some guy in a heavy
metal band. You'd be much better off listening to Howlin' Wolf and then taking it nice and slow from there.

You're exploring new sounds. For example, "On Euery Street" has a twangy line that

sounds flatpicked.

Yeah, I used a pick for that. I played an old [Gibson] Super 400 with Alnico pickups through a [Fender]
Vibrolux with the tremolo on. That's genre. You've got to love all that crap, haven't you? [Laughs]

In a big way. How do you get that warm, throaty lead tone in "You And Your Friend"?

My Les Paul has a little alteration [see Love Over Gear]. You can pull a pot up and get a slightly
out-of-phase sound. Then you just back one of the levels down a little bit to where it becomes this voice. I
tried to get that on ,,Brothers In Arms" but it didn't please [engineer] Neil Dorfsman at the time we were
doing it. I always liked that sound; with a Les Paul it's a beautiful thing.

What acoustic did you use on ,Iron Hand"?

That was an old [Gibson] J-45. I just sang and played. I wasn't feeling too well.

How about that low-key, smoky tone in "Fade To Black"?

The Super 400 again. Those Alnicos are great. If Gibson could find a way to make those pickups once more,
they should.

It's a real jazz/blues mood - shades of Django or Kenny Burrell.

Originally it was a Rolling Stones kind of thing. That wasn't making me happy, so I changed the chords right
around and put the Super 400 on. Everybody just played, and I sang and played. We never changed the
vocal, the guitar, anything. That's an untouched recording.

Wow. These days, that's pretty radical.

You're not going to get recordings that capture the spirit of the moment [snaps fingers] unless you've got
confidence, knowledge, and belief. It's important to have people on your side, a band who can follow what's
going on. They don't have to be the world's greatest players, but if you're going to embark on a recording like
that, I would heartily suggest that you get a great drummer. One of the reasons why I loved making this album
so much was because of [drummer] Jeff Porcaro. He's an artist.

Did you cut many tracks live?

,,Iron Hand," ,,Fade To Black," ,,Calling Elvis" - there's a bunch of stuff on this record that just happened.
Everybody is just playing. Who's recording like that now? It's not an engineer's dream, but more people
should record live if they can.

You're not afraid to mix styles.

Even on the straight things - a song like ,,How Long," for instance - I like to put something in that they
wouldn't allow on country radio. A heavy distorted, very, very loud guitar on a country song: Rock and roll
won't play it, country won't play it, but that's the music I really like. That's where I'm at. I like working around
that delicious place where country meets blues, playing with the third or the absence of the third. It's a highly
stimulating pre-orgasmic area [grins].

Do you have a home studio?

Yeah, in London. I don't know if it passes for a real studio. I did a Notting Hillbillies record [Missing. ..
Presumed Having A Good Time and most of the Chet record [Neck And Neck] there. You've got to be
quite careful - the door doesn't close. You can hear motorcycles and builders and stuff.

When you're off the road and not working on an album or a film score, do you ever practice?

Well, songwriting becomes practicing becomes songwriting becomes practicing.

But I hear an evolution in your playing. More chromatic notes. Diminished runs.

You pick up licks here and there to increase your vocabulary.

So you advocate a less structured, more oblique approach to learning?

I say strange things that most teachers would never say. Watch television with the sound off and play
something. Fall asleep while playing.

Do you do that much?

Oh yeah, ever since the beginning. I'll fall asleep playing and my fingers will just be flying about.

Describe your songwriting process.

I write everything on an acoustic. I usually don't have an electric at home. I'm dead lazy and I'm no good with
tape recorders or anything, so I just stick some words down in a notebook and try to remember the music.

Got any writing tips?

On this last little break during the tour, I had a capo on the 3rd fret of my acoustic; it changed everything
completely I was writing different stuff and an awful lot of stuff because of this change. So if you're in a rut,
you might want to change your format. For instance, I originally wrote ,,Sultans Of Swing" on my National
steel guitar, open tuned. Same lyrics, but a different tune. Since I can't remember it, it was completely
unremarkable [laughs]. When I got the Strat and plugged into an old Vibrolux, it became something else.

So new tools can breed new ideas.

Yeah. Sometimes a change is as good as a rest Tune your guitar to a chord and you'll write something
different. Stick a capo on it, you might write something else.

Ever try fingerpicks?

I dispensed with thumbpicks and fingerpicks a long time ago. A fingerpick doesn't give you a down blast if
you want one. And the thumbpick separates your thumb from your fingers. Chet uses a thumbpick, so his
bass is always clearer and much louder than mine. And he cultivates his nails, so he gets more level all round.
You learn these things: Falling asleep on holiday on this last break, I discovered that the [third and fourth
finger] anchor I use actually mutes the acoustic.

Are you practicing now without it?

Yeah, I'm playing more fingers off. Anchors aweigh! With an acoustic it sounds so much better This is
elementary stuff, but it took me 20 years to find out.

Do you see any drawbacks to playing fingerstyle?

Because I'm playing with my fingers, I need good amplification. The best amplifiers are picks. As soon as you
lose the pick, you lose a lot of level. It changes the tone and, in terms of genre, it changes the legitimacy of
what you do. So if I'm playing a straight blues or something with my fingers on an electric guitar, I have to
think slightly differently. On something like ,,Love You Too Much," I might have to work a little bit harder to
be legit, whereas if I used a pick it would be fine. But I could never keep picks anyway, so I just play the
way I do and dial up the right sound on the Soldano amp.

What other acoustics do you own?

I recently bought a Taylor that I like a lot. My favorite acoustics are made by [Notting Hillbillies member]
Steve Phillips. I have two. They're the best I've ever played. He only made a few; unfortunately, one was
destroyed. He tried to approximate a ‘30s Martin, basically

Where do you find inspiration?

Listening to old music is great. You have to know old stuff - get right back into it, know it, feel it. It's no good
these heavy metal bands putting slides on their fingers and picking up Nationals and pretending they know
how to do that stuff as part of their shtick. It's just woeful. Having said that, I'm very critical of myself
because I don't practice electric, which I should really do. I still get myself in knots with the band, and I'll
stand there and think, ,,What the hell am I going to do now?" But that's part of the fun of playing live. And I
do intend to practice; I should and I will.

What constitutes "old music"?

If you think going back means Led Zeppelin, have another think! You have to start with American music in
the ,20s. It would help if you knew about Irish and Celtic music as well. American music is essentially a
nuclear fusion of blues and country. That's what the whole thing's about. Nothing else matters. You have to
know the history of it, which doesn't involve listening to Otis Rush just once. It doesn't involve listening to
Speckled Red once. It doesn't involve listening to Gid Tanner And The Skillet Lickers once. It doesn't
involve listening to Bob Wills once. It's extremely foolish to have all these music schools create opportunities
for talented kids to learn how to do technical things unbelievably well, when they don't understand where the
hell it's coming from. Lots of people play music and don’t really hear it, which brings us to the subject of
musical musicians and unmusical musicians. There are many impressive players who are far more technically
adept than I am, for instance, but they're not hearing it, they're just doing it. Sticking stuff in the right boxes,
depending on what the progression is.

So what's the antidote?

Be concerned with the soul quotient of your music, the sheer joy of being in the heart of something. And don't
be concerned about the marketplace. The music business is something that's completely and utterly separate
from music. Don't think about singles. Just do what the hell you really want to do. Learn to hear music, so
whatever is going on, you find a way to help it. Finding Parts is a musical musician's speciality: Parts are what
make great records - not producers. It's not a question of what you know. It all comes down to this: What
are you prepared to give of yourself?